This very similar to what I experienced with my failure. Cookies whose names begin with "optimizely" are associated with the Optimizely digital experience platform (which is subject to the Optimizely Privacy Policy; the "Privacy" section of the Optimizely Trust Center provides additional information about Optimizely privacy practices, including a link to the Data Processing Agreement that applies to personal data the Optimizely services process on customers' behalf that may be subject to certain regional privacy and/or data protection laws, while their "Cookies and localStorage in the Optimizely snippet" help page provides additional technical information about the cookies and/or similar technologies used by that platform). 4. if someone would have put in a used ecu ,fron a electric controlled aod. For additional technical information about the cookies used by the analytics service, see their "Google Analytics Cookie Usage on Websites" page; for your reference when reviewing that page, we did not use Google Analytics 4. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. Akamai is a registered trademark or service mark of Akamai Technologies, Inc. in the United States (Reg. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. All engine power flows through the mechanical clutch directly to the input shaft. I think you probably have some time as long as you dont pound on it. Although this arrangement sacrificed some of the smoothness that was the main rationale for early automotive torque converter transmissions, it made Ultramatic more efficient than the early Dynaflow, at least at cruising speeds. 4. Hydraulic slippage also offers some advantages during acceleration: As with a plate clutch, a certain amount of slip makes for a much smoother takeoff. Have you ever gotten in your car, started it up, put it in gear only to feel it shudder? A tracking pixel, sometimes known as a web beacon, is a tiny image file that loads from a remote server; it's a type of embedded content (as is the button itself, which loads from the same domain). It does drove different than a lock up. The torque converter is made up of five parts: The stator is called the middleman. For more information about what data PayPal services collect and how that data may be used, visit the "Legal Agreements for PayPal Services" page to review the PayPal Privacy Statement and Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that apply in your location (the Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that applies to each region is linked from within the applicable PayPal Privacy Statement). Google, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC.). Petrol / Gas. This is most noticeable from about 1200-1800 rpm. Ate Up With Motor's Terms of Use and Privacy Policy may be revised from time to time. This means that at a 2:1 torque multiplication ratio, an engine that is making 300 lb-ft of torque at a stall speed of 2,500 rpm will actually apply 600 lb-ft of torque to the input shaft of the transmission as the car leaves the starting line. The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. Click to reveal Opening the throttle further could delay engagement to a maximum of 56 mph (90 km/h). if you dont hammer on it everyday it will last you a long time.. my stock converter had 350 rpms of slip on the 310 tune and the truck still had all kinds of power even locked. So when the torque converter clutch engages there should be almost 0rpm difference between tc slip desired and tc slip act. Please register or login to enable Dark Mode. Packard achieved that goal by treating the engagement of the lockup clutch like an automatic gear change. Last fall, the external filter disintegrated and clogged up the cooler. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? mroberthowell 4 yr. ago Thank you so much! Lockup clutches were used in some nonautomotive torque converters before World War II, but the first regular-production automotive application was the 1949 Packard Ultramatic Drive, which established a model for subsequent transmission designs. Actual shows 640 rpm in drive with the brake on. When you submit a comment, you may have the option save your information for future comments, storing the info in these cookies. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. With the advent of overdrive automatic transmissions like the TH200-4R, the TH700-R4/4L60E, the massive 4L80E, the Ford AOD, and all the rest, the new-car companies were striving for improved fuel economy using overdrive. The reason for increasing stall speed is directly related to the engine's torque curve. In this diagram, the yellow arrows show the power flow in second gear. Those gear ratios were in addition to the torque multiplication provided by the torque converter. The replacement was a cheaper and somewhat simpler Borg-Warner unit which Studebaker-Packard called Flightomatic that deleted the DGs lockup clutch. Thanks for this. A malfunctioning torque converter can have a shudder that comes from the transmission. Borg-Warner continued to sell the DG series for several more years to some non-U.S. customers, but U.S. automakers would not rediscover the lockup clutch for another 20 years. Ate Up With Motor, its logo, and other associated icons and graphics are trademarks and/or service marks of Aaron Severson dba Ate Up With Motor. To learn more about what information the YouTube platform and other Google services may collect through and/or in connection with embedded video players and how Google may use that information, see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page and the Google Privacy Policy. Stator The stator is called the middleman. You must be at least 18 to comment. You only monitor it when the converter is locked. These early units operated on the same principal of using one electric fan to drive another. Adding stall speed to the torque converter increases the power available to accelerate the car more quickly. This slippage is part of what determines the stall speed of the converter. Whether it will add to my working knowledge is debatable, but my brain will benefit from the workout. The torque converter of the future will have a carefully tuned control strategy, which takes into account the torque demands of each vehicle. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. These torque converters allow some slippage but it should not vary much from the desired PCM value. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. Your first course of action, if you notice yourtransmission or torque converter has started to slip or shudder is checking your fluid level. The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. by SirHandyMan Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:43 am, Post It stays between 0 and 5 RPM when locked. You also need to move forward with viable options that will help you get your torque converter fixed. He wondered if something internal may be damaged and the tow tune showed it up not allowing the torque converter to unlock soon enough which caused the bog down issue. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Unlike a clutch where a friction plate makes physical contact with another plate and ideally the two rotate at exactly the same speed when fully engaged. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. AE parameters when looking for tranny slip? Reach out to your local AAMCO transmission center when youre ready for your efficient, smooth and worry-free ride. Welcome to the dark world of torque converters. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). Forum. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. With the torque slip PID on the DashDAQ. i called a trans shop and he had no answer,but it sounded strage to him. (If you need to review or change these settings after you accept, you can do so from the Privacy Tools page.) The combination of a smaller-diameter and lighter converter means that less engine torque is required for acceleration. Since the transmission was largely dependent on the torque converter for torque multiplication, it was crucial that the lockup clutch not engage prematurely and that there be some means to immediately disengage it for acceleration. Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our Comment Policy please read it first! After logging in, the wp-settings-UID cookies store the logged-in user's configuration settings, while the wp-settings-time-UID cookies record the time those configuration settings were last set; again, there may be multiple iterations of each of these cookies, which normally expire after about one year. The knock sensor wire harness connector was loose. Your email address will not be published. The downside to these converters is that they are heavier and more expensive than non-lockup converters. In order to get a realistic value, use: Your finish line MPH (from ET slip) Your finish line RPM. Okay, so it sounds like you were able to identify a potential root cause. About Us - AAMCO Centers are independently owned and operated. At stall speed, the impeller is spinning at engine rpm and the turbine is stopped. There was also a kickdown mechanism that allowed the driver to disengage the clutch at road speeds between 13 and 56 mph (21 and 90 km/h) by flooring the accelerator, allowing the torque converter to again multiply torque. Most street cars cannot keep the rear tires from spinning if you add too much throttle, and this tends to limit the stall speed. A 5 percent slippage factor means that if the impeller is spinning 3,000 rpm, the turbine is only spinning 2,850, or 5 percent slower. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. However, the cookie may remain on your device for as long as the settings of your browser (or other user agent) permit. A torque converter clutch (TCC) is an important element of automatic transmissions because it affects fuel economy and driveability. Its weird its not noticable as even a new soft engaging lock up but it acts somewhat like it has one. This created the demand for a lockup converter employing an internal clutch inside the converter to directly connect the turbine with the input shaft of the transmission just like a manual-transmission clutch. A flyweight 2,800-pound car like an early Mustang or Chevy II could use less multiplication to successfully launch on their relatively smaller rear tires. In this schematic of a basic three-element torque converter with lockup clutch, the torus cover, lockup clutch pressure plate, and impeller (red) all rotate with the engine flywheel. 51.91.16.67 ), This cookie was set if you clicked the "Disable Google Analytics Tracking" link to prevent the Google Analytics service from tracking your use of the Ate Up With Motor website. In the event we receive any compensation and/or other valuable consideration for any other content presented on this website, the nature of that compensation or consideration will be disclosed as part of the applicable content and/or otherwise adjacent to it. 3. and 5. In third gear, the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DGs lockup clutch drives the transmissions output shaft at engine speed, providing a completely mechanical direct drive with no hydraulic slippage. if I'm seeing "desired TC slip" of 1020rpm at all times wouldnt that pretty much guarantee the TC would never lock? iThemes is one of the Liquid Web family of brands; iThemes and Liquid Web are trademarks of Liquid Web, LLC.). The action you just performed triggered the security solution. Turbine speed tends to fall behind impeller speed any time load increases (for example, when going up a steep grade) and an increase in engine speed doesnt immediately produce a corresponding increase in turbine speed. Not all the listed cookies and/or data items are necessarily set in all instances, and there may sometimes be others not listed above, particularly if you are logged into a Google account. Happens roughly 1-3 times in 30 mile drive at speeds of up to 60mph, and much more frequent at highway speeds (70+). I had unlimited tow loaded and he thought maybe it wasn't playing nice with my trans. Torque converter clutch slip Scan tool values 99 GMC Pickup GM's 6L80 HP Tuning, DoD, and Torque Converters! What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. Tuning. Fluid clutches fluid couplings and torque converters have many advantages for automotive transmissions, but with those benefits comes a cost: fuel-wasting hydraulic slippage even at cruising speed. This overran the rear unit planet carrier, unlocking the rear sun gears one-way clutch and putting the transmission in direct drive. Impeller Pump The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. Some vehicles have a transmission temperature indicator that will let you know when your car's transmission is overheating. Cookie Policy - Currently the vehicle is much better to drive. Its job is to smoothly convert engine torque into hydraulic pressure that your transmission uses to engage and shift gears. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:24 pm, Post The fluid did not look dirty. With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. When you coast in gear, the transmission attempts to drive the engine crankshaft, whose inertia causes a braking effect. Crazy Egg is a trademark of Crazy Egg, Inc. Optimizely is a registered trademark of Optimizely, Inc. in the United States, EU, and elsewhere. If your car transmission keeps overheating, you may also notice your transmission starts to act funny, or it may even go into fail date and stay in one gear and not shift at all. With a manual transmission, you are allowed the freedom to pick the starting-line rpm you want to apply when you dump the clutch. A healthy plate clutch slips only briefly when engaged or disengaged. This is why lifting off the throttle in a car with a fluid coupling or torque converter can feel almost like shifting into neutral. Plugging it back in all the way and resetting the PCM took care of that problem. The car became basically undriveable. Generally, by the time you reach the 60-foot mark on the dragstrip, torque multiplication is effectively eliminated and the turbine and impeller speeds are close to achieving what converter manufacturers call coupling speed. (Until late 1954, the transmissions planetary gearset always remain in direct drive unless the driver manually selected Low.) With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. Since taking all the of the steps outlined above, I can confirm that the transmission has been running properly and the clutch working as expected. Sure, there's all kind of talk about stall speed, slippage, and lockup features, but some gearheads secretly believe there's as much voodoo to a torque converter as there is science. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. We thought 10 was bad 2 years ago. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Also, as we explained in the sidebar of our article on GMs other early automatic transmissions, torque converters utilize the speed difference between the driving and driven torus members to multiply engine torque. That includes the advanced manufacturing technology being used in optimizing torque converters. Comments may be moderated. Starting in Drive provided a maximum starting ratio of 3.10:1 (a mechanical ratio of 1.44:1 times a nominal torque converter stall ratio of 2.16:1 at around 1,600 rpm), which was better than the early Ultramatic or Dynaflow, but still made for lazy performance, especially with Studebakers six-cylinder engine. To serve up a little enlightenment, let's take a spin through the torque-converter world and make some sense out of all the superstition. Studebaker-Packard (the two companies merged in 1954) dropped both of these transmissions after the 1956 model year. and our The transmission fluid is an important part of the torque converter in that it is used to provide the fluid coupling and smooth starts and without stalling the engine when the vehicle is stopped in gear. In certain cases, multiple iterations of either or both of these cookies may be set. But Ive never heard of anyone going that route. would it work,yet throw out aod default codes. Your ring and pinion (gear size) Your circumference or roll out of the rear tires. The trans temp was never above 160 degrees. There are tried and true methods for fixing the five common torque converter issues. Reaction torque locked the rear sun gear against the rear one-way clutch, driving the planet carrier and output shaft forward at 69.7% (1 / 1.44) of turbine speed. I havent studied the Wilson preselectors in any great detail, but if youre curious, the applicable U.S. patents are US1404675 and US1796904. It ran pretty good. Torque converter slip question I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. As these vehicles age, diagnosing these issues can become more challenging. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. This is a session cookie that verifies that the user has entered valid user credentials pending receipt of the correct authentication code; the cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). The DG series transmissions were notionally three-speed automatics (although early iterations were designed to start in second gear) with a torque converter lockup clutch. In addition, all page headers, custom graphics, button icons, and scripts related to the PayPal services are service marks, trademarks, and/or trade dress of PayPal. In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). I took it to my mechanic and he too found nothing wrong. Just thought I would share with everyone some recent learnings I've had with my 2010 EB Flex. The first automatic transmissions employed what was called a fluid coupling to connect the crankshaft with the transmission. The good news is, if it is just your torque converter that is having issues since it's a self-contained unit, you may not need to replace or rebuild your whole transmission. I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) Privacy Statement - Basically, the fluid exits the center of the turbine and is redirected by the stator back into the impeller. Each PayPal payment or donation button may also incorporate a tracking pixel called "pixel.gif" (which loads from paypalobjects.com). Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. Think of it as two fans facing eachother inside an enclosure. What to Do to Fix Slipping or Shuddering. Although torque converters are ideal launch devices for. 2011 Flex Limited AWD EcoBoost - Mediterranean Blue Metallic/Silver Roof. (PayPal.com, PayPal, and all logos related to the PayPal services are either trademarks or registered trademarks of PayPal, Inc. or its licensors. If governor pressure dropped below that threshold, the clutch would disengage. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. Therefore, a lockup clutch needs to be accompanied by some mechanism to selectively engage or disengage the clutch. To learn more about the specific cookies used and/or to fine-tune your available choices, click "Privacy Preferences" at the right. 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My truck was still putting down 575 on Dunbar's dyno with 100 RPM of slip.. im seeing 20rpm slip at most on my KEM 345, i know thats different. These cookies are necessary for the site's administrative users (who wouldn't even be able to log in without them), but if you are not an administrative user, these cookies aren't normally placed on your device at all unless you somehow access the login area, which is off-limits to non-administrators. This is not a huge factor in the overall lower-e.t. Overdrive ratios drive the torque converter at speeds generally below normal coupling speed, creating increased slippage and heat, which is unacceptable. The turbine has a spline that attaches to the transmission input shaft, which connects to the internal parts of the transmission to shift gears and provide power to the wheels. I found the cause of the P0325 and P0330 error codes. However, that did not cure the shuddering problem. Anyway, I downloaded FORscan on my laptop and loaded several pids for the transmission. Think of it this way, a well built converter, 10" may slip 4-5%, if yours slips 6-7% higher, you are baking the fluid, cooking the band, and compromising the clutches, and giving up mph and ET. A high-stall converter like a 4,000-rpm unit is not only lazy from a part-throttle-efficiency standpoint, but it also generates much more heat. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. Another important part of the torque converter and stall-speed equation is converter diameter. A forum community dedicated to Ford Power Stroke owners and enthusiasts. When coasting, the turbine overruns the impeller, which causes slippage, but relatively little braking effect. Any reading below 10 RPM slip is really errors in reading the sensors, not real slip. For one, the engine would stall every time the vehicle came to a halt with the lockup clutch engaged unless the driver shifted to neutral each time. Your Transmission Fluid is Contaminated. The slipping occurs while you're driving or changing gears, and it usually comes with some odd noises too. Filling the cylinder with pressurized oil would lock the pressure plate to the clutch plate itself, forcing the clutch and input shaft to rotate with the torus cover at engine speed.
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